We will never be completely free while governments exist.....but average ppl are far from being able to institute "freedom" w/o this necessary evil. And I agree with everythng said here, except that we are less free than at any point before. It may be an "illusion" of sorts, as Carlin says, but we still have it very very good....and that is coming from someone who is poor as **** and hasn't been able to work in years. I still consider myself extremely lucky(when I'm lucky enough to have this perspective)
And with respect to Hiroshima, although tragic(I'm glad to see ppl remembering events like this and not just days like 11/11)...that act saved millions of lives.... it wasn't as simple as 100,000 Japanese people losing their lives. The actions of WW2 along with other and current major conflicts have helped(and will eventually help) to bring millions the "false freedom" many talk about. No matter which way you slice it, war is terrible.....I guess I just really hope some good comes out of it...and that after every last soldier has left those 2 countries, that the people there fight back to achieve some semblance of freedom and peace....as well as all the nations enduring massive civil strife right now. It's horrible what's going on across that region, but I think it's really the only shot they have at attaining the "illusion" of freedom that we are lucky enough to possess.
We may have to put up with a lot of b.s. in this country and in the west in general...but at least we don't have to worry about being tortured or killed for speaking our mind about the government in public. In my sometimes extreme view, that is definitely something worth fighting/dying for. Too bad that's not the only reason for us being over there all these years.
Sigh. I don't even know where to START with this. First, I don't think ANY loss of life is justified. War is war, and it is bloody and violent, but please lets just STOP pretending it is about something more than power, dominance and greed. There wouldn't be much to fight about otherwise.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I find it extremely unsettling that there is any justification for dropping ATOMIC BOMBS on a country. Jesus. Generations are still suffering the effects of the horror of Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Yes, it was not Hitler's Final Solution in the way that it was systematic genocide over time, but in a lot of ways it is the same thing on a larger and quicker scale. 10,000 Japanese lost their lives, but that isn't counting the generations since that suffer with birth defects, cancers and deaths arising from that fateful decision. You cannot sweep it under the rug as something
"good for freedom".
You must remember that the opposite of freedom is confinement, and I think that it is an imagined threat to begin with. Whose opinion are you basing this on anyhow? Who told you we weren't free, or that we were? I'd take that with a grain of salt.
You cannot justify war. The only people that lose is the people. Every goddamn time.
very true....as I said though, I'm just hoping that something good comes out of it. THose people have been through hell in Afghanistan/Iraq (as well as the generations in Japan suffering from effects of the a-bombs)...and I would hate to think it has all been in vain. I can't possibly explain with this msg :)
ReplyDeleteI don't think that greed, power and dominance are the only powers that are always at play...although the vast majority of the time that is true. Through history it certainly has... and the u.s. is still an imperial power in a sense(however I dont think they're over there just for oil, I think it more to do with surrounding Iran with military bases as well)
I do agree with the a-bomb in a way, no matter how cold you may think I am over that view... if the U.S. didn't... and was forced to attack the Japan mainland, MILLIONS would have died. THose people would've fought to the last man woman and child(if Iwo Jima was any indication). The entire world needed that war to end THEN. Unfortunate that it was ever invented....but I see it as more than just people dying. I don't think things are that black and white. Same with war. Iraq for example, for the most-part, is not enduring this civil war just because of defiance of American presence. There is no longer an iron fist in the form of Saddam and his sons to control the Sunni and SHia, who are still fighting over who should have inherited Mohammed's mantle...and they are trying to take advantage of the power vacuum when they blow up market-places full of innocent people. The west obv kills many innocent ppl as well, but not in such a deliberate and horrible manner.
I have so much more to say, but I do think sometimes wars are justified....not the people who are forced to suffer as a result. I am a strong advocate of foreign intervention in cases(like Libya) where oppressive regimes are massacring their own people or keeping them in a dictatorial cage.
I can't just be totally against ALL wars just because people unfotunately die. I am unable to see things that simply, although maybe I should. I often feel guilty for even thinking of good things that will come from conflicts like this, but that's the only way I know to think about it and have some hope that their sacrifice will not be in vain. I try to focus on a hope that in 10-20 years they will be free...and suggest that perhaps that will make things "justifiable". The more I read what you've read and what I'm writing...the more and more I question it though :) perhaps I just like to go against the norm and argue too damn much. But I can say this with absolute confidence... If Harper was killing Albertans for being liberal, or our country's women were having their clits forcibly removed to keep them from committing adultery....I would want someone to bomb the crap out of us and install a new government.
Also no matter how you look at the wars of the last 10 years....they have partially inspired the revolutions in Africa and the mid-east. And eventually those people will have freedom of speech and religion as well.
If we want to see war removed from this world Dr. Agent Girl, we need to be rid of literal translation of religion...and possibly even subscribe to a one-world govt w/o nations. Then there would truly be nothing left to fight about.
Feel free to reply as I didn't touch on much of what you say...but it is so hard to have this kinda talk on here. Although I suppose the more I say, the more of a conservative douche you will think I am haha I'm neither conservative nor liberal(I think). I judge each situation individually. uh oh haha
also I don't think I was "pretending it is about something more than power, dominance and greed."
ReplyDeleteit was just a few points reflecting another viewpoint on the whole issue. Again, not a total representation of what I think on any given issue. I agree with you're way of looking at it...but also see things a bit differently too.
alos, didnt mean to imply your views were "simple" or black and white :) I know nothing that you think or say is simple or black and white...
ReplyDelete***awaiting a tsunami of liberal genius and anger*** lol thanks for making me re-think things....I should talk with ppl like you more often whose opinions I respect, to even out my views on these topics. This is kinda what we were taling about with the BP affecting writing or views. I have been very extreme in my thinking for YEARS on this one....
ReplyDeletep.p.s. Bush Sr. should've taken out Saddam in 91 instead of backing off cuz of the upcoming election :)
ReplyDeletealso...a lot of my extreme views(and the original source of the rant when ppl were saying we only have an "illusion" of freedom) are based on conspiracy theories and other similar resources. A lot of that information is true, however it really pisses me off(and has for many years) when ppl base their entire world view on a film by Michael Moore or whatever. I have partially taken such an extreme side or view just out of disagreement with the vast majority of ppl who preach about this subject without knowing much about it except what they'e seen in these movies. So I do admit that I must be wrong in a lot of ways and that sometimes I argue just to bring out points that aren't commonly expressed. Another problem I think the BP makes worse when I am feeling isolated or misunderstood.....sometimes just saying things for the sake of an argument or conversation. But relaly just to point out some possible positives, instead of focusing on the negative(I do that all the time in my own life and get sick of other "postive" ppl being so negative about the govt and world in general)...that being said, maybe there is a time and place for negativity, especially in my views on war. But I still remain convinced that things are not as simple as they may seem. As we have both said and agreed many time....always two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in between :)
ReplyDeleteIt's funny that a) you would call me liberal, and b) that you think my views are somewhat black or white.
ReplyDeleteFirst - I would call myself a social democratist (if anything). Secondly, I feel your views are more of the black and white variety than my own. You talk about freedom and peace, when these countries have been under oppressive regimes for GENERATIONS, despite the war and bloodshed that defines their ancestry.
In addition, power, greed and dominance ARE the only reasons for war. If there were no profits, no conquest benefits or hierarchy involved, there would be no war. No one would fund a trillion dollar death machine with no reward. It's sweet that you like to envision that wars occur to right injustices, but it isn't the case. Or else the U.N and Unicef would have the corner on personal grenades.
The reality is that those human rights issues are just the bandaids the media puts on bigger issues because very few would sacrifice their children to fight wars based on greed. In actuality, the countries we war against are at least more honest about the reasons they fight. We sugar coat everything so that the West can sleep peacefully at night and spend small fortunes by day.
fair enough...although I stated that I do not think your views are simple, or black and white. And I am the first to admit that my views are very b&w sometimes. I'll give you the last word other than that :)
ReplyDeleteAnd to answer to the comment you added just before mine, I will say this:
ReplyDeleteI can understand where the frustration comes from, ignorant views are problematic. However (and I say this tongue in cheek), your extremist answers in some ways are very much the same kind of thing.
To argue effectively, you must be a lateral thinker...you need to traverse all perspectives before you form your opinion. Or else it's all more of the same extremist, uninformed crap.
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ReplyDeleteI just realized this post is pretty crazy...and I do justify outright war in it. Not exactly sure why :) I do see the different sides and perspectives, but I suppose I, like many others, are too far removed to sometimes fully grasp the reality of what's going on. Thanks for pointing out some of these things to me though, helps to keep me a bit more grounded. :)
ReplyDeleteOWNED!!! lol
ReplyDelete